The Federal Court has made it’s decision, 2-1, not in favour of Lina Joy to allow her to remove the word “Islam” from her identity card.
This is a sensitive case but let me ask a pertinent question:
Although required by law, why is it necessary for the NRD to specify a muslim’s faith on his/her identity card? What were the circumstances leading to this requirement?
By virtue of this law alone, the Federal Court’s decision, in my opinion, is unduly compromised by overlapping extra-legal jurisdictions, hence, natural justice could not be dispensed.
Please focus on this point alone and leave out other issues of religion, the Constitution, apostasy, etc from our further deliberation.
O.B.E. 
50 comments
Comments feed for this article
May 31, 2007 at 9:48 am
mih
No big deal. This is a distraction that I am glad is out of the way. Now let’s go for the real prick – the current admin.
May 31, 2007 at 12:26 pm
mekyam
Shar: …why is it necessary for the NRD to specify a muslim’s faith on his/her identity card?
Good question. Unless it’s needed for the afterlife journey, a person’s blood group would probably be more pertinent.
May 31, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Biggum Dogmannsteinberg
Shar101,
“why is it necessary for the NRD to specify a muslim’s faith on his/her identity card? What were the circumstances leading to this requirement?”
Well, when anyone is arrested doing activities which have been provided under some state’s enactment like having illicit sex, consuming alcoholic beverage, gambling etc, then the authority can differentiate who are the Muslims (which these laws apply and prohibited to do these activities) and who are the non Muslims, which the enactment does not provide the prohibition against the consumption of alcoholic beverages freely (as long as he/she don’t drive under the influence of intoxication) and having illicit sex.
Also during fasting month (Ramadhan) for eating in public.
Clear enough why the authorities want to know you are Muslim or Non Muslim?
May 31, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Daily Nibbler
Why? Chasms, my boy, we live in chasms.
May 31, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Redzuan
“why is it necessary for the NRD to specify a muslim’s faith on his/her identity card? What were the circumstances leading to this requirement?”
well shar101, just wanna add one more thing. Let’s say a body is found, say a drifter(nobody claims the body), then it’s necessary to know his/her religion for proper burial. I don’t think nowadays we can guess one’s religion by his/her name or appearance, since i’ve seen some “creative” names which made me wonder what gender/race that person is, let alone religion.
hope this clears things up.
May 31, 2007 at 6:09 pm
juslo
bcos it’s the MAJOR instrument of controlling muslims.
before the days of mykad, the islamic authorities had hard time enforcing islamic rules such as catching people drinking alcohol, not fasting, khalwat and zina (especially when doing it with non-muslims).
having mykad makes it a lot easier to conduct raids bcos u no longer have to guess, from the name n the look, whether a person is/not muslim. now, mykad has made it even possible to catch even pan-asian faced muslims who dont look like malays at all.
lina joy tried to get married, but her ic stood in her way.
the corpse of nyonya tahir was grabbed solely bcos her ic stated that she was islam.
before mykad, u only heard 1 or 2 cases here n there in a decade about this sort of religious disputes. after mykad, u hear moorthy, nyonya tahir, rayappan n lina joy all in the space of 2 years.
it all began with mykad. mykad is like the invention of the magic wheels which unleashed the forces of islamicization, which make the islamic revolution possible.
ask yourself – without mykad (stating ‘islam’), how is a state religious authority going to enforce ‘no-exposing of aurat’ law by catching the young, sexily-dressed chicks walking on the streets, n fine her on the spot – without the need to get into a long, drawn-out debate/proof of whether she’s a muslim or not?
– many would deny they r ‘muslims’ at the precise moments when syariah laws r being shoved down their throats against their wills; they still want to b a muslim, still believe in allah swt n the qu’ran, but just cant stand the man-made, repressive laws called ‘syariah’. put it another way – they want to b spiritual muslims, not malaysian legal muslims.
those r the main reasons (aside from want marry non-muslims who dont want to convert) why so many want to covert out – not bcos they doubt the tenets of islam.
so, to sum up my answer to your question, my view is that mykad is the lock which would ‘unite’ (read: confine, bind) the muslims together in the ‘gas chambers’, where the conservative, fascist, nazi clerics could begin to use the tools of the police state to strip muslims of their rights piece by piece, n turn the muslim nation in malaysia into a repressive, totalitalian theocracy.
with mykad, there’s now no way to escape.
(few years back, there was a proposal to imbed dna codes into mykad chip. they said it’s to facilitate tracking down of criminals, i say it’s to make it easier to identify offsprings of muslims who (r by definition muslims) might have evaded the ‘net’…)
May 31, 2007 at 7:12 pm
The Shadow
Awesome analogy, Juslo : ) … Except for the last bit on the DNA code embedding. A great conspiracy theory, it would make though ; )
Wonder how BiG DoG’s gonna react to the points U’ve highlighted here… Hope it’s NOT gonna be the same old (read: LAME), “If U don’t like it here, go else where” rhetorics. The heart aches when such comments are posted : ( Constructive debate/discussion is lost!! And, I’ve always felt proud singing “Negaraku… Tanah TUMPAHnya Darahku”
May 31, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Portia
Shar dearest,
Faith (as in your religion) is between you and God alone. It cant be forced or put upon. I really believe in this.
Constitution and the rules of law, is no laughing matter. It cannot be compromised at any given time.
The decision, in my point of view, is questionable. But I am no expert so it doesnt matter.
I agree with Mek Yam and of course I also agree with Redzuan.
Best that I keep my further views on this matter just to myself.
May 31, 2007 at 11:29 pm
walski69
For reasons of Control and enforcement, my good friend… just as Juslo had mentioned above… (although I would agree to some extent with Redzuan’s reasoning, too)
The current popular viewpoint espoused by the so-called loud Muslim “majority” is that faith is NOT just a personal bond between a person and God, but must be legislated and controlled. Any move by the Government to try to liberalize society will immediately be lambasted by the religious right as being “detrimental to Islam”.
I seem to remember (some years back) that the requirement for one’s religious affiliation to be emblazoned on their MyKad was debated in Parliament, and the reason of “enforcement” was quite prominent in the debate by those in favor of it.
In as far as I am concerned, Freedom of Religion in Malaysia is a myth – an urban legend, at best…
p.s. I owe you a spot on my blog-roll, which I will get to ASAP!
May 31, 2007 at 11:38 pm
mih
looks like juslo is back!
June 1, 2007 at 12:38 am
juslo
mih,
ya… but your ‘!’ flatters (n frightens) me… ;P
been offline for a while for some extended work project, but has been following news once in a while (no time for blog though).
m thinking of writing something on lina joy on my blog soon…(advert… hehe) now thinking of translating the lina joy judgment, as soon as i can find a malay & english law dictionary… cheers!
June 1, 2007 at 1:57 am
jedi hopeful
i believe one’s case of “murtad” or not, is totally up to ALLAH to decide..i dont think we simply call that person murtad. what if, on his/her last breath, they accept islam again thru the shahadah… we can just “doa” for the best…
However pity Lina Joy..huge implication…..HUGE
hows her marriage? i dont think she can register it, since her religion is islam in the IC..and her hubby’s IC must stated that he is a christian..our law does not allow marriage registration for couple of diff. religion right?then how is she going to claim for benefits is anything happen to the husband..insurance? epf? they dont even have marriage cert..then how about her children? their birth cert?
too many victim here..but then again, who’s the victim?
June 1, 2007 at 4:34 am
Biggum Dogmannsteinberg
The victim here is those who are trying to dis-equate Melayu = Islam. The victim here include those who does not want to understand and/or pretend not to understand that Islam is taken very seriously and those who are against the concept of, as the Chief Justice put it “One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies”.
June 1, 2007 at 5:09 am
eng
Chief Justice put it “One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies”
is he the chief justice for the Syariah Court ?
sounds like he is speaking out of his capacity tho… and obviously with this thinking, his verdict was biased.
Also the NRD acts like a satelite org for Syariah too, to demand for certification.
Perhaps the Syariah Court should review their apostasy process to improve it or whatever they could do to speed up the process so that the Muslim is purely represented by the real muslims who have ALLAH at heart.
June 1, 2007 at 5:30 am
eng
Under Islam Hadhari, “Islam must be delivered in a judicious manner through reminders and advice, through dialogue and the exchange of thoughts … war and the use of force should not be used as a shortcut to success.”
I got this from religion.info site.
Isn’t it another shot in the foot for Badawi??
Malaysia is a mess isn’t it when you put everything (what we trying to sell VS what we are doing) on the table.
June 1, 2007 at 6:28 am
wattahack?
Chief Justice put it “One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies”
if he speaks for Islam he should stand down in a secular court and be Chief Justice in a Syariah court. if he is a Chief Justice of the secular court he MUST speak for the rights of humans and constitution. it is a conflict of interest to have a wolf in a chicken den making decisions on behalf of chickens. no one should accept this decision as its done in a secular court with a syariah verdict. its much like asking muslims to accept a syariah court with 2 non-malay muslim converts vs 1 malay-muslim stating its NOT OK to marry 4 wives as interprated by them and all should abibe by that rule! can malay-muslims accept something like this in return? won’t some ppl critises the 2 non-malay muslim converts saying they are NOT MUSLIM?
June 1, 2007 at 6:36 am
wattahack?
Chief Justice put it “One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies”
the other argument is:-
and if the CJ insists its on the constitution that a MALAY MUST BE MUSLIM therefore CANNOT be any other… then the loophole would be any NON-MALAY MUSLIM should be allowed to change their ISLAM tag in their IC without anymore debate cause the highest court already said so. Means a Indian/Pakistan/Chinese/Arab…etc. Muslim can convert to any other religion and NRD has to oblige PERIOD! Only “Melayu” Race cannot, any other races can.
June 1, 2007 at 11:59 am
Biggum Dogmannsteinberg
Wattahack,
You know law and the Constitution better or YAA Chief Justice of Malaysia know better?
June 1, 2007 at 3:40 pm
peace-seeker
I just want to know this:
Did Lina Joy go to the Shariah Court to inform the court that she had renounced Islam and had converted to Christianity?
She was a Muslim – born a Muslim & not a convert. She renounced Islam. So I thot the procedure is: Go to Syariah Court first.
Did she bypass this procedure? If she had done so and her application rejected then she SHOULD seek redress in a civil court. I might be wrong on this.
I know this is an anomaly (if one can call it) in the country. We have two legal systems running parallel to each other where matters concerning religion/Islam, divorce, etc affect Muslims.
I am neither an expert on legal matters nor on Islam. I daren’t comment much on something that I don’t know abt.
Religion is a very sensitive matter/issue. Please do not let this thread be an “open season” to bash & mock Islam as I have seen in other blogs.
Just hope everyone here will bear that in mind.
Peace to all. 🙂
June 1, 2007 at 4:00 pm
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June 1, 2007 at 5:35 pm
galadriel
Peace seeker has a point. Lina was born to Muslim parents and were brought up as a Muslim. She therefore logically should have gone to the Syariah Court and say she wanna renounce her religion or sumthing like that.
But she didn’t because she knew of the repercussions. Someone posted this bit in A Voice’s blog n I reproduce it for reference.
ENAKMEN KESALAHAN SYARIAH ( NEGERI MELAKA ) 1991
6/1991
Bahagian BAHAGIAN IV KESALAHAN – KESALAHAN LAIN
Bab
Seksyen 66 – Percubaan murtad.
(1) Apabila seseorang Islam dengan sengaja, sama ada dengan perbuatan atau perkataan atau dengan cara apa jua pun, mengaku hendak keluar dari Agama Islam atau mengisytiharkan dirinya sebagai orang yang bukan Islam, Mahkamah hendaklah, jika berpuashati bahawa seseorang itu telah melakukan sesuatu yang boleh ditafsirkan telah cuba menukarkan iktikad dan kepercayaan Agama Islam sama ada dengan pengakuan atau perbuatannya sendiri, memerintahkan orang itu supaya ditahan di Pusat Bimbingan Islam untuk tempoh tidak melebihi enam bulan dengan tujuan pendidikan dan orang itu diminta bertaubat mengikut hukum syarak.
(2) Jika seseorang yang telah diperintahkan supaya ditahan di bawah subseksyen (1)-
(a) bertaubat dengan serta-merta, Mahkamah hendaklah, setelah mengesahkan taubatnya itu, membebaskan orang tersebut; atau
(b) jika orang itu pada bila-bila masa semasa dalam tahanan telah bertaubat, Pegawai Penjaga hendaklah melaporkan perkara itu kepada Mahkamah dan Mahkamah hendaklah memanggil orang itu dan setelah mengesahkan taubatnya itu, hendaklah membuat satu perintah untuk membebaskannya.
(3) Pegawai Penjaga hendaklah menyerahkan satu laporan kemajuan berhubung dengan orang yang ditahan itu kepada Mahkamah pada setiap minggu.
(4) Pusat Bimbingan Islam hendaklah diwartakan sebagai Pusat Tahanan di dalam Warta.
The way I understand it, there is no way the Syariah Court will allow her application to leave Islam, had she applied. There is no provision in the enactment above.
So how? U leave Islam, u go to jail, get fined 5,000 in most states in Malaysia. In Melaka, u go to Pusat Bimbingan Islam and u still don’t get to leave.
I understand that for Muslims, Apostasy is one of the 7 dosa besar. I understand the sentiment. But ultimately, faith is between oneself and God.
An interesting question. Does it make the Muslim community in Malaysia happy that Azlina/Lina is a Muslim only in the legal sense?
By the way Shar,
Why do I hear more about apostasy these days? Dulu orang tak murtad ke? Mebbe the internet age makes infrmation viral….but still? I wanna talk more abt this with u Shar? Teh Tarik?
June 1, 2007 at 6:21 pm
A Muslim
“An interesting question. Does it make the Muslim community in Malaysia happy that Azlina/Lina is a Muslim only in the legal sense?”
==============================================
Answer: As a Muslim (and) I speak for myself), the asnwer is no. It does not make me happy.
But if Lina has faith in the religion she has chosen, she has to bear with it.
She has to go through the procedure/ motion for choosing the religion she believes in.
Did not Jesus, die on the cross, for the sins of mankind?
For me; to each his own. And it is said in the surah Al Kafiruun.
June 1, 2007 at 6:37 pm
A Muslim
Should read:
She has to go through the procedure/ motion for renouncing the religion (Islam) she was born in and choosing Christianity, the religion she believes in.
June 1, 2007 at 7:29 pm
devil advocate
Let us just assume that Lina Joy went to the Syariah Court and is sent to the Rehabilitation Centre where the authorities hope to “turn her over”.
But she is still “unrepentent”, holds on to her faith, Christianity, & renounces Islam.
What will happen to her after the six-month period is over?
Will she be jailed and fined?
Ok, let us say she paid the fine served her sentence. [to quote galadriel: “So how? U leave Islam, u go to jail, get fined 5,000 in most states in Malaysia.]
Will the Syariah Court grant her wish to be a Christian?
Can Lina Joy have ”Islam” deleted from her MyKad?
June 1, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Biggum Dogmannsteinberg
When a Syariah Court (there are 14 separate and independent Syariah Court in Malaysia) produced the certificate of apostasy (which they have done before), then Lina Joy is legally no longer a Muslim. Then, based on the Chief Justice ruling, she can go and get the word “Islam” omitted from her MyKad.
June 2, 2007 at 1:46 am
walski69
Apparently, the application for leaving Islam is treated as a Civil matter, and not a criminal one (source: Wan Zafran’s post). Wasn’t aware of this, but I wonder if that is universally applied across all 14 jurisdictions, or not.
Sorry, Shar 101, a bit deviating from your stated rule of engagement, but I thought I’d mention this for clarity…
June 2, 2007 at 2:55 am
pussycat
all i can see is that many people — non-muslims and self-proclaimed liberal muslims – are taking this opportunity to whack Islam and the Syariah.
I don’t care two bits that Azalina Jailani is now a Christian and has been so for years now.
I care that her quest to drop the word “Islam” from her IC has emboldened so-called advocates of human rights to raise issues of apostasy and the syariah, and now demonising and maligining Islam.
Nobody is questioning her apostasy, although she converted without going to the Syariah to renounce Islam, as is required.
I am a Muslim and I am bound by the Syariah when it comes to religious practices including those relating to marriage, divorce and inheritance.
The Syariah does not suck.
Lina Joy was wrong in not conforming to the Syariah when when she decided to renounce Islam.
By not dropping the word “Islam” in her IC does not make Lina not a Christian. Nobody is compelling her not to be a Christian.
So stop invoking verses of the Quran.
To MM — don’t be patronising us Muslims, ma’am. Why don’t we ask you : Do you believe in the Quran?
To all defenders of Lina Joy — stop criticising Islam and the Syariah.
And to Portia (why do you hide behind this name, Elviza? When I click I go straight to Write Away) — who’s forcing anyone to give up or embrace a faith. And I don’t see anyone laughing at the constitution and the Rule of law.
June 2, 2007 at 4:55 am
devil advocate
walski69,
Thank you for the link:
http://www.wanzafran.com/2007/lina-joy-the-decision-counsels-explanation
Thanks also to Biggum Dogmannsteinberg.
June 2, 2007 at 5:41 am
muslim banshee
to portia/elviza,
for you, faith (your religion) is a personal matter. For me too. But understand this, if you are a Muslim, you subsribe to the Syariah laws. No two ways about it.
So let’s not misunderstand this.
So, non-Muslims should not apply their logic to the way Muslims conduct their lives. The can never understand this.
Muslims have accepted this. At least, most of us anyway. Liberals, included. Not pretenders.
Portia, do read wanzafran. And maybe you will understand a little something about Malays and Islam.
June 2, 2007 at 6:29 am
Jay
I agree with Muslim Banshee. If you are a Muslim, you subscribe to the Syariah Laws.
Yes, there are no two ways about it.
Islam is a way of life. You dont pick and choose aspects of the religion that suit you and leave out that which do not please you.
I care not that Lina Joy has renounced Islam. But like many Muslims, I am angered that her case is being used by certain groups & non-Muslims to go on a bashing spree against Islam and the Syariah.
June 2, 2007 at 10:04 am
freelunch2020
good question 😉
June 2, 2007 at 10:45 am
banjaran
pussycat: “By not dropping the word “Islam” in her IC does not make Lina not a Christian. Nobody is compelling her not to be a Christian”
__________________
Hello? Don’t you know she cannot get married to her Christian boyfriend with the word Islam on her IC? Plus do you want the Islamic authorities to snatch her kids and perhaps snatch her body for burial after her death? Plus, who is the shariah court to declare Lina a Muslim or not? Can the shariah court see into her heart?
Plus we all know one of several things could happen if Lina goes to the shariah court.
a) Her application sits there gathering dust like Nyonya Tahir’s application.
b) She is sent to a detention facility in Ulu Yam
c) She runs the risk of the shariah court declaring her a Muslim when she is a Christian. A ramificatio of this is that when I meet Muslims I don’t know whether they are real Muslims or not – it could just be a label given by the shariah court because their hearts are not Muslim but the shariah court says they are Muslim.
And this decision is also about the shariah court’s jurisdiction. The shariah court only has jurisdiction over persons professing Islam. Lina Joy does not profess Islam. So the shariah court has no jurisdiction. The civil court made a shameful decision not to protect the rights of non-Muslims.
June 2, 2007 at 10:57 am
banjaran
whattack: “and if the CJ insists its on the constitution that a MALAY MUST BE MUSLIM”
____________________
The consitution defines what is a Malay but does not define what is a Muslim. The consitution says a Malay is a person who professes Islam, speaks Malay and conforms to Malay customs. If a person does not profess Islam means he/she is not a Malay. But the constitution does not say define what is a Muslim. It does not say a Muslim is a person who is a Malay. So the constitution does not automatically make all Malays Muslim like the CJ says.
June 2, 2007 at 11:16 pm
juslo
commercial time…
Lina Joy – English Translation of the Majority Judgment
http://juslo.blogspot.com/2007/06/lina-joy-english-translation-of.html
Lina Joy – Malaysian Islamists Won the Battle But Losing the War?
http://juslo.blogspot.com/2007/06/lina-joy-malaysian-islamists-won-battle.html
Magical Powers of MyKad
http://juslo.blogspot.com/2007/06/magical-power-of-mykad.html
————————————————————————————————————————
Sorry, Juslo. Your above ‘commercial advert’ went into ‘spam’. Just dug it out and tadaaa…Am I getting paid for ‘approving’ this – shar101.
June 2, 2007 at 11:36 pm
elviza
Muslim Banshee,
Thank you very much.
I did read the link, and the full judgment (as in FULL written judgments) of the case. Both from Court of Appeal and the Federal Court.
My question to you and you alone:-
1) Why is my understanding on islam and malay your problem? I thought you said its a personal matter earlier in your comment. You are contradicting yourself.
2) How long have you been pratising law in this country? Please take note your honest to god reply will make all the difference here.
My comment only stated that I personally think the judgment is questionable. I didn’t say which judge’s judgment is questionable. It could have been Richard Malanjum’s decision that I find it questionable.
And from that you labeled me a liberal? Oh, how shallow. You need to read more. I am honest.
Also, please my friend, you dont say the muslim SUBSCRIBE to the syariah laws. Try changing it to GOVERN by the syariah law. Duh, why am I even entertaining this? Beat me
By the way, I am Elviza Michele Kamal and I sometimes use the penname of Portia. The bloggers know me. What about you Muslim Banshee?
————————————————————————————————————————-
E, dearie. Your comment popped up as spam but it wasn’t there last night (4/06/07) – shar101.
June 3, 2007 at 2:40 am
Unladen Swallow
As much as we’d like fellow believers (in any religion) to remain to their own faith, it goes without saying that some will lose faith in this one and move on to the next, for some reason/experience. So when, the Chief of Justice says: “One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies.” That’s kind of forcing an individual to be a Muslim, no? Did the Creator not give us free will to choose as we liked, regardless the consequence? But that’s a topic for another day.
The only logical reason I can think of having religious classifications on the MyKad would be with what Biggum came up with. Since non-Muslims do not come under Syariah law, it would save some of them a lot of trouble in the near-immediate sense, especially since some Chinese these days look like Malays and so on. Or maybe to catch people of mixed parentage from grabbing freebies at the mosque during buka puasa (my friends have done this before :P).
There are some thoughts though, and the prospect of singling out Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe come to mind. Well, that doesn’t apply. I hope.
June 3, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Wilma
So by deciding that Lina Joy’s MyKad states she is MUSLIM when she is most categorically. and importantly, legally is NOT, does it mean that the law just made it legal to prosecute/persecute her for, say, eating during the fasting month, having a glass of wine, holding hands with her fiancee/husband, being in a casino etc?
How exactly does that preserve the greatness of Islam? Ensure OTHER Muslims do not desire to leave the faith? Sustain, or promote the appeal of Islam to non-believers?
Will the imposition of Muslim laws on a non-Muslim make all that possible?
How exactly does that keep other Muslims happy? Through deprivation of someone else’s human rights?
Pray, tell me.
June 3, 2007 at 7:07 pm
pussycat
banjaran,
oh. bollocks.
Lina Joy was a Muslim and therefore she had to follow procedures to renounce her religion.
What’s happening now is becos she never respected the Syariah.
You are typical of so many people out there who cannot accept the fact that Muslims are governed by the Syariah.
Lina Joy is no longer a Muslim now but she was.
And Banjaran, if you cannot undersand that, then I suggest you stop all those postulating about the Syariah.
Makes you sound stupid.
June 4, 2007 at 1:31 am
WATTAHACK?
June 1st, 2007 at 11:59 am
Biggum Dogmannsteinberg
Wattahack,
You know law and the Constitution better or YAA Chief Justice of Malaysia know better?
Biggie Dog it was 2-1 vote so the 3rd person must be stupid? cause he does not know the law and constitution better? can you imagine if it was a malay, chinese & indian judge how would the outcome be? are you 100% sure it would be the same verdict? I maybe stupid but not blind…
June 4, 2007 at 1:34 am
WATTAHACK?
I’m so stupid to understand why some muslims say when you renounce islam you are to be punished and death is the punishment but some muslims say its not written in the holybook therefore there’s an avenue to renounce islam… Biggie Dog can you enlighten us on this?
June 4, 2007 at 2:12 am
Biggum Dogmannsteinberg
Not all Muslims subscribe to death penalty for apostates.
I for one, don’t. Maybe some ultra orthodox Talibans somewhere in the remoteness part of Southern Afghanistan mountains tend to rule for capital punishment for apostasy. Remember, these are the same people who instructed for the grand Buddha statues at the cliffs of Bamiyan Valley to be destroyed.
Personally, I am so against that. I felt historical relics should be preserved to illustrate a nation’s past history. That is why when the Generals of the Caliphs during Ar-Rashidun and later Umayyad era conquered Egypt. Libya, Tunisia and Morocco, Persia and Palestine, from late 600s onwards, they did not order the destruction of temples and other historical places of worship. When they captured Istanbul few hundred years later, they only transformed some of the Cathedrals into mosques.
The Muslim conquest never went through the “Spanish Inquisition” thingy although they took most of North Africa, Spain, West & Central Asia.
Many ways of skinning the cat. So does on apostasy cases. How it was dealt by different people (decision maker/s) has its own reasoning, based on the circumstances at the point of time and the situation at the moment.
A lot of the more progressive clerics interpreted that apostasy should be dealt with consultation. Most of the Malaysian Muslim clerics now, especially in the Universities, do not subscribe to death penalty as a punishment for apostasy. I personally heard the late Prof Emeritus Tan Sri Ahmad Ibrahim, founder of Kuliyyah of Laws, UIA and former Supreme Court Justice in Singapore and Dato’ Dr. Ismail Ibrahim, former DG Institute for Islamic Understanding (IKIM) and later Chairman, National Fatwa Council and Dato’ Dr. Munir, his predecessor., talked about Hudud and Apostasy. BTW, Dr. Munir is a leading expert on Hudud Law, where aspostasy issue falls under.
Had cases like Lina Joy gone to the Syariah court and she actually applied to renounce Islam, some consultation would have taken place before the judges decide. Going to the Syariah Court is not an avenue which is completely impossible. The Negeri Sembilan Syariah Court for example, had allowed 16 cases of apostasy.
————————————————————————————————————————–
BD, double entry bro. Am deleting one. Meanwhile, you have the floor, so to speak.
Just got my ’second’ new modem working again after my old one got whacked by lightning on Saturday and I’m gonna be busy checking up my mails, lost files (if any), etc.
Be back in about 12 hours. And don’t mess up the furniture! – shar101
June 4, 2007 at 6:38 am
WATTAHACK?
Be back in about 12 hours. And don’t mess up the furniture! – shar101
hahahahahaha ….. some might take that as a joke some might get offended and take it as an insult …..
June 4, 2007 at 6:52 am
Biggum Dogmannsteinberg
I’ll avoid the flimsy furnitures. BTW, I’m off my half yearly holidays starting from Tuesday, 6 June 2007 till the weekend. So no engagements on this or any other blogs, including my own. 🙂
Personally, I am not easily insulted. I even call my own self as a dog! (How much worse name calling can anyone insult me with????) Hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha 🙂
Call me anything, I will be fine. However, I easily get offended if Melayu and Islam is being challenged.
June 5, 2007 at 2:35 am
muslim banshee
elviza,
oh, i am so sorry to have offended you.
please, don’t go on the defensive,or offensive.
i really don’t care whatever kind of Muslim you are.
by the way you are writing, i take it you are a lawyer? what kind?
no, i am not a lawyer.
i am not even arguing legal points here.
you mean, only lawyers can understand the fundamentals of the case?
you don’t seem to. and your standard of english, is not quite what i would expect of someone trained in law. i mean, i know lawyers and lawyers.
Forgive me.
anyway, sorry. of course, of course, the word is not “subscribe”. certainly my mistake.
well, whatever. just don’t miss the point of the entire argument.
Indeed, learn from a learned friend/colleague — Wan Zafran. You will learn something and perhaps impress us with some basic knowledge.
I apologise again if I seem to have belittle you.
June 5, 2007 at 2:38 am
muslim banshee
OBE,
an earlier comment to Elviza — last line should have read: “…. to have BELITTLED you.”
I know she wouldn’t even have noticed it, but I thought, oooh, my reputation is at stake here.
ciao, OBE
June 5, 2007 at 2:42 am
muslim banshee
OBE,
I do wish that Elviza woman didn’t have to respond.
I can’t understand what the f…k she was trying to say.
except that she should know better because she is a lawyer and has read yada yada..
Frankly, I don’t give a damn whatever.
Just that she did not make any sense. You know what I’m saying, OBE?
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MB, let it go, bro.
Anyway, Elviza’s last comment went into ‘spam’ and it got published by me three days after the fact – shar101.
June 5, 2007 at 3:57 pm
juslo
thanks for the space, shar… just post me your ‘bill’ on my blog… 😉
June 5, 2007 at 6:07 pm
elviza
Dearest Shar,
My sincerest apology to Muslim Banshee, but I for one, will not anwer any of his comment because of the language used. I do not condone the act.
“F…K?”
Thanks for the space my dear and I got your number. See you soon.
p/s: your personal email to me has been replied. Please check your mailbox.
June 10, 2007 at 4:19 am
devilsadvocate
question for the legal eagles.
1. is the federal constitution the supreme law of the land?
2. In case of conflict of laws, what to do we refer to i.e what is the ultimate source?
3. Who or what confers jurisduction to the shariah courts?
4. does the shariah law of WP ( the jurisdiction werein LJ resides/d) have any rule/law on apostasy?
June 15, 2007 at 3:52 am
Safia Tajul Alam
“One cannot embrace and renounce Islam according to one’s whims and fancies”- you know Eng this is very true for us Muslim-but still Lina Joy should applied to Syariah court to renounce Islam…but then it will be no fanfare and fun for all to bash Islam and the Syariah Court.
I personally don’t really care if Lina Joy is Muslim or Christian and I sincerely hope she got what she want-to delete the word Islam from her MyKad.
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STA, I’m a little tied up with the gremlin thingy, so, can I come back on this one a little later. Basically, it is this. The federal constitution is upper to the syariah – shar101.